Talk:Tallinn

German & Swedish Name ?

Also known by its German name Rewal? in the first sentence of the article? Isn't that a little over the top? I never heard that name in my life. What is the relationship between any German speaking state and Estonia? If someone proves there was one, the German name should stay but not in this form since it's too over the top.VicFromTheBlock

also please Mr Kenney don't erase my discussion pages from the discussion page and provide explanation for the reversal and actually including this German/Swedish name and what is the historic link between Estonia and that German name and again don't ERASE this legitimate discussion, Who do you think you are to reverse it? Instead of doing that, please provide proof there is a legitimate link, for now I do not see one so it's off again.

VicFromTheBlock

Tallinn was mostly built under German and Swedish rule and got its "international fame" as a member of the Hanseatic league - as Reval. Tallinn left Swedish Rule around 1800 when being taken over by Russia .. Russia used the name Reval too though prior to Estonian independence.

Also if the term Reval is dated, it might be good to keep it there just since in anything historical, Reval will be the term to look for / is a term that is most definitely significant enough to mention .. and a name most educated Estonians are quite aware of since Tallinn was just "their" name for the town historically, not the name internationally known. It's also a name you'll find all over the place in Tallinn on old buildings and signs. Reval should be mentioned somewhere in the article, yes. If it should be mentioned towards the top of the page is debatable. - ChiLlBeserker

Too bad the self-styled language-pc crowd found the Estonian city names as well. There go the facts and the information value (since, in EE, this is not really an ideological issue). Clossius 14:44, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I actually have heard, that even these days some german newspapers refer to Tallinn, as Reval. So I did a quick research and that's, what I found:

http://www.zeit.de/2003/21/P-Petersburg

http://www.welt.de/data/2005/08/02/753902.html

http://www.welt.de/data/2005/06/30/739045.html

http://www.welt.de/data/2004/02/07/233584.html

"Chivalry of Estonia"[1] is not really terminology used in English. I would suggest instead "Estonian Knighthood",[2] which has some printed references. "Ritterschaft" is occasionally left untranslated,[3] although I don't think we should do that here. I think " Baltic German-populated Estonian Knighthood (Ritterschaft)" would be the best phrasing for our intended audience. Olessi 15:26, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

But why Baltic German-populated? Most of them spoke Estonian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.40.110.66 (talk • contribs)

The aristocracy of Livonia was primarily Baltic German, and the external link you provided makes this quite clear. Simple calling a group "Estonian Knighthood" implies in English that they are ethnic Estonians; clarifying that the group was actually Baltic German does a better job of informing our target audience of what the group actually was. Olessi 15:41, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Historical seal

If anybody needs a little material for the history bit, here is a drawing of a former seal

Valentinian T / C 21:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Kalevi > Kolyvan > Taanilinn > Rävelä > Revalia > Reval (Rääveli) > Revel > Tallinn

This is how the correct history goes. Short describtion of Alfred Rambaund´s "Russia" (1900): "In the north Kolyvan was bought from the king of Denmark, after the fiercest disputes. Under its rock lies Kolyvan, a Titan hero of Finnish Tchoud-Esthonians. Kalevy-poeg or "the son of Kalev". Thus there was an ancient Aesti wooden Hillfort at the rock of Toompea called Kavevi. Name Kolywan is the Slavonic version written down in Kieva (Kywa) by Nestor and other monks. If there was not a Hillfort so why the Rurik Dynasty Prince from Kieva would laid a siege of it in 1030 "when he captured all the land except Kolyvan and opened the sea for the Rus, baptized whole Korela (Karelia) and destroyed all the pagans in Beloozero / Valgiajärv (White Lake)" by later written nonsense of Kievan monks. May I point out the following from Rambaund´s text: Another song of Weisland (Whiteland) as Esthonia was called. Thus, how can a monk in Kieva, never visited in the area, separate several Valgiajärvis / Beloozeros to the correct one? If the land was called Whiteland also the Great lake was called Valgiajärv ie. Whitelake before named to Lake Peipus or Peipsijärv the lake of White Eyed Chouds who mined iron and copper on its shores. As described by Nestor and his fellowers: The Great Novgorod started to mine iron and copper on the shores of the sea. This in 1030, according to the monk caves in Monastery in Kieva. There is even attempt to make the whole sea to "Sea of Rus". There was infact copper mined in Vasknarva at the Neck of Naarva River by the Tshouds as Rambaud continues: It is close to the poem where "raudamched" in Tchoud language are described: No iron cannot penetrate their armour,nor the axe break it. Even today the Russian call the Great Lake Tshudovskoje ozero.

Eero Kuussaari: Suomen Suvun Tiet (1935) "The Power of Kalevalaiset (Kalevaisten) is mentioned also in Anglo-Saxon Beowulf song which was written down c. 500 AD. There appear also in addition to Attila, Ermanarik, etc others also as the King of Finns under name Caelic which is transliteration of Finnish Kaleva, Estonian Kalev-Regu, and Lithuanian Kalvis (blacksmith).

Born in Kalerva estate, our famous shine in the high hard rock in the land of Viru Isthmus. Son of heroes lineage. King of Poimari, guard of silver island, to the king of the Karielas. (Karjalan kuninkahaksi)".

(My free transliteration).

Regards:

Map image

In the condensed section the map image should be changed with larger view of Northern Europe, just like it is under Stockholm and Helsinki pages.</p> The red dot indicating the location of Tallinn is in the wrong place too. Not sure how to change it and rather busy to find the lime to learn at present.79.86.198.152 (talk) 15:32, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Ferry companies???

I think Silja Line no more operates between Helsinki and Tallinn, they lost superseacats when Tallink bought Silja.--62.65.192.83 (talk) 17:04, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Rat

My parets have recently returned from Tallinn, back to England, and brought with them a silver ornament of a rat, laughitng with a round belly. They believe it is symbolic only to Tallinn as they were sold a lot in Tallin. What is this symbol? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.98.117.4 (talk) 18:49, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

probably nothing. many things may be sold in many places. it's just a souvenire 82.131.76.99 (talk) 18:07, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Tallinn University is not former Pedagogical University

Tallinn University is not only former "Tallinn Pedagogical University", but also EHI (Estonian Institute of Humanities), Institute of History, Baltic Film and Media School (SIC!) and many other institutions that joined and now are called "Tallinn University".

My suggestion is to remove the comment about the pedagogical university and remove distinct entry of "Baltic Film and Media School" under Education.

Ats Puu (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 00:41, 21 December 2008 (UTC).

Done. Martintg (talk) 04:10, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation?

How is "Tallinn" pronounced? Where is the stress? CarolinianJeff (talk) 19:51, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

On the first syllable. See Estonian_language#Stress. The "a" is pronounced as the "o" in "bother", and the "i" is a weak "ee" sound. The consonants "ll" and "nn" are long, and get held a bit longer than their short versions "l" and "n" (they do not modify the pronunciation of the vowels as in English). Dcoetzee 02:45, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Wow

This article looks really ugly, I mean look at it, so bad positioning. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.196.10.185 (talk) 16:29, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

I fail to see anything remotely "ugly" about it. Would you care to be more specific? --Ericdn (talk) 19:56, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Start at history and ends at economy. Look at all those tables, there are so many and they are badly positioned. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.196.10.185 (talk) 22:06, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

You're more than welcome to try to fix the page so that it looks better. Just complaining about it isn't going to solve anything. You've got to do it yourself! --Ericdn (talk) 08:44, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

the last name change

In the early 1920s, the official spelling of the city name was changed from Tallinna to Tallinn, making the new name notable since Estonian-language place names always end with a vowel (denoting the genitive case).

Er what? Am I to understand that Estonian place-names never occur in the nominative? —Tamfang (talk) 19:22, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

That is true, you can't find a single (as far as I know) place-name in Estonia that ends with a consonant - of course, the exception being Tallinn. H2ppyme (talk) 20:08, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

That is the case when you are talking about place names like villages and towns. Some islands ( Naissaar) and lakes ( Võrtsjärv) etc. might not end with a vowel, although the genitive form (always ending with a vowel) is commonly used aswell.H2ppyme (talk) 20:16, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, but I think the question that you want to answer is not the one that I want to ask! I am not surprised to learn that all or most place-names end in vowels; that's true in many languages. I am not surprised to learn that the genitive (of at least some nouns) adds a vowel. (Well, a little bit surprised, since I believe that in Finnish the genitive has –n; but that's not important.) What puzzles me is the parenthetical remark that these two facts are related: that the final vowel in place-names denotes the genitive case. Is there a rule against sentences in which the subject is a place-name? Or is it customary to list place-names (on maps and indices) in the genitive? Or can I reasonably suppose that the person who added the parenthesis was confused? —Tamfang (talk) 01:10, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Well, it might mean the name is in Genitive case, but I am not sure about every name...See, in Estonian many words end with a vowel and their Genitive form is exactly the same as Nominative form. Some towns have a 'translation' into modenr Estonian - as it is with Võru (collet) and Kiviõli (Rock oil), but it could very well be the Genitive form...And in sentences they act as Nominative (in grammatic - they are Nominative, the Genitive form is just the name). But for example Tallinn's Airport, we say 'TallinnA lennuväli', this means that Tallinn is the only place name to be in Nominative (makes sense, because the nominative form of 'town' in Estonian is 'linn' and the Genitive 'linna').H2ppyme (talk) 04:31, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

How about this?

In the early 1920s, the official spelling of the city name was changed from Tallinna to Tallinn, making the new name notable since nearly all Estonian place names end with a vowel. In a phrase such as Tallinna Lennujaam (Airport of Tallinn) the first word may appear to be an archaism, but the –a marks it as the genitive form.

Or drop all mention of declension. I hope the article on Moscow doesn't explain Moskva, Moskvu (or whatever its oblique forms are!). —Tamfang (talk) 05:51, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

If you are talking about editing this article then I think this section is fine as it is.H2ppyme (talk) 15:09, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I guess I'm the only one in the world who might be puzzled. —Tamfang (talk) 17:52, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

If you still want to ask something you can turn to my talk page, but everything important about the name is mentioned in this article already. Note the ending of the Modern name section.H2ppyme (talk) 19:04, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

What makes you think I did not note the ending of that section? (Note the ending of my proposed replacement!) I agree that all the relevant information is there; my problem is that some of it – names always end with a vowel (denoting the genitive case) – is paradoxical: I am not aware of any (other) language in which names always appear in a marked form.

If I saw "The Latin word for 'dog' is canis, in which –is denotes the genitive," I'd change it without hesitation. Nouns in Latin (and in most languages with cases) are normally cited in the nominative case. It so happens that for some consonant-stem nouns the nominative and genitive have the same form; in such words, like canis, the –is sometimes denotes the genitive but more often denotes the nominative.

I doubt that further questions will help; thanks all the same. —Tamfang (talk) 16:45, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Well, so much is clear to me that currently in the article the sentence: making the new name notable since Estonian-language place names always end with a vowel (denoting the genitive case) doesn't make much sense. Other than that ~linna vs. ~linn. In Baltic Finnic languages the word originally simply meant a stronghold. In Finnish linna still means a castle, in Estonian it became to mean a town. Estonians foreshortened the word by removing the ~a from the end at one point and...what is this notability of foreshortening the linna word all about, I have no idea. But since such a strange notability factor is not sourced and it doesn't make much sense, it should be simply removed.--Termer (talk) 03:49, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

PS. I'd also like to see a source saying that originally in 1918 Reval was renamed as Tallinna and only later it became spelled as Tallinn. After all in 1918 it was only possible to hold 'officially' the name Tallinna for just about an half a day. After Estonia declared independence on February 24, Estonia including it's capital was shortly occupied by Imperial Germany during WWI. And under the German occupation the town surely wasn't called anything but Reval. Only after the Revolution in Germany and the withdrawal of the German troops from Estonia if became possible to start calling the town 'officially' Tallinna/Tallinn again. So it would be great if someone could dig up some sources that would clarify this thing.--Termer (talk) 04:34, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

PPS. also, an interesting fact might be that during the Soviet era the name was most often 'officially' spelled in English as Tallin, following the Russian form of the name Та́ллин.--Termer (talk) 04:34, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

PPPS.Like I thought there was something strange about the way Tallinna vs Tallinn was put in the article. Tallinn In Your Pocket By Nat A. Singer, Steve Romanis is pretty clear about the facts. ...Even after the Danes left, many Estonians continiued to use the name Tallinn while almost everyone else preferred Reval. It was only in 1918 after independence from Russia that Reval was totally dumped. For a while both Tallinn and Tallinna were then used. In 1925 Tallinna was declared official, but soon after Estonia changed its mind and in 1933 talinn became the final name for the nation's capital city.--Termer (talk) 04:43, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

That the city might have been officially called 'Tallinna' seems incredible. I'd say it's a hoax.--Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 08:43, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Not according to Eesti vabariigi Tartu ülikooli toimetused/Acta et Commentationes Universitatis Tartuensis, Dorpatensis Published by Tartu Riiklik Ülikool in 1926 where the name is clearly spelled Tallinna (Reval). Also Eesti-saksa son̄araamat/Estnisch-deutsches wörterbuch Published by Eesti kirjanduse seltsi kirjastus in 1923 spells the name as Tallinna (Reval, Revel)--Termer (talk) 23:15, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

I possess an Estonian road map from early 1920s, the capital is called just like it is in our days. I also have a number of books from 1920s, never encountered the form Tallinna. --Miacek (t) 08:08, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

It surely seems dubious. The United States Geographic Board Decisions from June 1 1923, to June 30 1927 lists the name change: Tallinn - capital city of Estonia (Not Reval, Revel, nor Talline). So at one point it looks like some dictionaries used "Tallinna" but if it ever was , and if yes when exactly an official spelling needs to be verified I think by another source to confirm the way it's put in the Tallinn city guide By Nat A. Singer, Steve Romanis.--Termer (talk) 05:40, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Administrative districts of Tallinn during USSR

Does anyone have a soviet map or any other information on exact boundaries of administrative districts of Tallinn (Lenin, Kalinin, Oktober and Sea districts)?DVoit 20:43, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

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