User talk:Trorov
From Archiplanet
Dear User "Trorov",
Thanks for your recent activity at Archiplanet! We appreciate your interest.
This message is to let you know that we temporarily suspended your account to prevent you from redoing changes that we're undoing. If there is a legitimate basis for the changes you're making, we'll be glad to discuss them with you before you go ahead. But after a cursory review of the widespread page moving you've been doing, there doesn't seem to be a strong enough basis for the change. And it seems potentially disruptive in several ways.
We were also concerned by the fact that no personal name or email address is tied to your account (one potential indicator of a mischief-maker in our experience).
So we'd like to hear from you so we can better understand your intentions before you're allowed to continue.
You're welcome to respond on this page below the horizontal line below. Or you can send email to support@artifice.com, if you'd prefer that option.
Either way, we'll look forward to hearing from you.
Best wishes,
David Owen Dowen 21:11, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
To whom it may concern:
There is a very legitimate basis for each of the changes made. The intent of each change is to rectify an inconsistency between the location of the work of architecture or architectural practice as given in the page title, and the location given in the body of the page. In some cases, the location in the title and in the body are in agreement, but are a neighboring city - and not the city the work of architecture or architectural practice is actually located in. These inconsistencies and inaccuracies lead to confusion and undermine the effectiveness of Archiplanet as a reference work. Trorov 15:43, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
Dear User "Trorov",
Thank you for your reply! We welcome clarification and correction where clear evidence can be documented to support that an actual correction is needed.
In the case of most of the changes you're making, I don't yet agree that they should be applied to these pages. Here's what seems to be the basis for the city names originally used:
The original "city" data for all of these pages (before your intervention) _seems_ to be consistent with what the U.S. Postal Service considers the Actual City name for the zip code given.
In the cases I've looked at so far, the names you're using are considered Acceptable City names by the USPS. And while I grant that there may be a general local preference for using one of the "Acceptable" options, we prefer to adhere to the Actual name given by the USPS.
You are welcome to make a counter-argument, citing any clear evidence you have, that the Acceptable option is preferable, but it seems unlikely that any source would really override the US Postal Service. Until we agree that there is definitive evidence that the city names need to be updated, we ask that you _refrain_ from making any more of these changes to the Firm pages (we'll also be reverting the city name in the page contents).
If there's a strong local advantage to recognizing one of the alternate city names in addition to the one used by the USPS, we'd be glad to consider a strategy that will include both, which I can detail at a later time.
Thanks for your continued interest. I look forward to hearing from you!
Best wishes,
David Owen
Dowen 15:50, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
In many of the cases the "basis" you describe is applicable, but not all. For instance, Mitchell Architecture, PC, Denver, Colorado, USA is located in Greenwood Village, CO 80121 - as stated in the body of the page. "Denver" is neither an Actual or Acceptable city name for the ZIP code 80121. There is no basis for attributing the location of Mitchell Architecture to Denver. It is false and misleading to indicate Denver as the location in the page title.
As for the "basis" you describe, it must be understood what Actual and Acceptable mean as far as the U.S. Postal Service is concerned. Many of the changes I made involve Englewood, Colorado. Englewood is an inner-ring suburb of Denver that was built out by the 1960s. Its post office was assigned to serve a vast unincorporated and largely undeveloped area south and east of the city. This area is now the high-growth southern tier of the Denver metropolitan area, and ZIP codes in this area were assigned "Englewood" as their Actual place name - even though the area was not and is not part of the City of Englewood.
In the meantime, an employment center as large as downtown Denver has grown in this area, and its office parks are the headquarters for several internationally recognized corporations. Neighboring cities incorporated and annexed portions of this area, most notably Greenwood Village and Centennial. In response, the U.S. Postal Service has added "Greenwood Village" and "Centennial" as Acceptable names for use with the area's ZIP codes, but Englewood remains the so-called Actual city name. According to USPS methodologies, the Actual city name assigned to a ZIP code is basically set in stone, essentially freezing things as they existed when the ZIP code was created - in this case, the 1960s/70s.
The USPS' only concern is efficient delivery of the mail, not to reflect actual city boundaries. To deliver the mail, the Postal Service really only needs a ZIP code. You may have noticed this when giving your address over the phone or on a website - you are asked for your ZIP code, but not necessarily for your city. Based on the ZIP code given, you are then asked, "that's in [city name], correct?" as a check. On a piece of mail, the USPS' mail sorting equipment looks first for the ZIP code, then checks to see if the city name next to it is in agreement, i.e. if it is one of the Actual or Acceptable names. It DOES NOT MATTER which of these names is used with the particular ZIP code - it only matters that there is a match. For instance, "Englewood" is the Actual city name for ZIP code 80111. "Centennial" is an Acceptable name. Any address with the ZIP code 80111 can be written with either name. Thus, an address that is actually in Centennial can be written as "Englewood, CO 80111", and an address that is actually in Englewood can be written as "Centennial, CO 80111". The USPS does not care which is used. But here's the kicker: there is NO address in the ZIP code 80111 that is actually in the City of Englewood!
Thus, Actual does not mean that the address is in "actually" in the city in question. It only means that this is the original place name that was assigned to the ZIP code. Yet because of address conventions, everyone assumes that just because a place name appears in an address, it is automatically in that city. Thus, we have such examples as Wetzsteon Design Associates, Englewood, Colorado, USA. Its address - 7692 South Monaco Circle - lies right in the middle of Centennial, some four miles southeast of Englewood. It is simply false and misleading to indicate "Englewood" as its location.
Why should the USPS conventions - which in this case is based on a methodology set in stone circa 1970 - dictate the reality of 2009? As shown on the US Census official boundary map of Centennial [1], 7692 South Monaco Circle is clearly in Centennial. The US Census is a source that must continually update its methodologies to provide accurate population figures and other data and statistics. The US Postal Service? it is only concerned with mail delivery, which is frankly losing relevance as much of the mail is being replaced with electronic communications. It is slow to change its conventions - if at all.
Indicating Centennial as the location of Wetzsteon Design Associates is both in agreement with reality (it lies within the Centennial city limits) and with the USPS (as it is perfectly acceptable to write its address as 7692 South Monaco Circle, Centennial, CO 80112). This scenario is the same for the other changes I made, and I hope that each of the other inconsistencies and inaccuracies I found will be allowed to be resolved. Trorov 17:31, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
In case you're wondering, I did ask you to stop moving all pages until we've resolved this question. that includes pages which seem not to agree with our preference.
Until the question is finally resolved (and it's not yet), we'd prefer that all pages stay where they currently are.
So, _please_stop_! Thanks!
Dowen 01:03, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
Fine. Please note, however, that the changes I have just been making (pages of firms giving Hollywood - a district within the City of Los Angeles - as the "city" they are located in) all have addresses in ZIP codes for which LOS ANGELES is the U.S. Postal Service’s so-called Actual City name - NOT Hollywood. Trorov 01:12, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
Noted. And we really appreciate your enthusiasm! And the solution we're coming up with to address this issue is not quite ready yet, but should address the question of accepted city names, in addition to the "actual" one. But until there's a definitive direction to go, we'd appreciate it if you could possibly hold your enthusiasm in check a little longer.
Dowen 01:21, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
Note also an example from a page that you edited earlier today - ConselcoR, Inc., Indian Harbour Beach, Florida, USA. This firm’s address is appropriately given as being in Indian Harbour Beach, even though the so-called Actual city name for the ZIP code 32937 is Satellite Beach. Trorov 01:38, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
